Hydrogen fuel kit

[Eugene]

Hi guys
Has anybody ever seen this kit in any car. Some of these claims just seem too good to be true but even if you can save 20%, it might be worth it. Came accross this thread on http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=aEB. You can read more here http://www.hydrogen-fuel.ca/.
What does the Guru's like Dawie, Tonyz, Impi and the likes think of this?

[Tony Z]

I think its a joke, but I'll read what they have to say later and comment then with an open mind.
If it was that easy, wouldnt all the guys looking into hydrogen powered cars (BMW for eg) have been using it by now?

[Pine]

Conventional wisdom would say - 'If it works so well, why doesn't everyone else do it'? Well in an age where money rules the world, and the price of anything and everything depends on the price of a barrel of crude oil, perhaps we should investigate it a bit deeper. I have the same approach as the belief in UFO's or ghosts:

1. I'll believe it when I see it

2. Yet, because I am no expert in the field, I will never say 'it isn't so' or 'it doesn't exist'

3. I can't recall ever seeing scientific proof to prove it not true, or not working

I just think what you see on the internet, is perhaps not the entire story, what I mean by that is that there is possibly some reason that doesn't make this economically viable?

[Tony Z]

just a little bit of quick reading....

The only problem with the water-to-water scenario is that electrolysis, at present, is expensive—hydrogen currently costs about three times as much as it’s fossil fuel competitors. This is mostly a problem of scale, however. As more and more hydrogen fuel applications come on line and the demand increases, mass produced hydrogen costs will drop. Another aspect of the problem, though, is that the cost of electricity for electrolysis is increasing, and most electricity, as discussed above, is produced by environmentally degrading technologies such as coal fired and nuclear power plants or hydroelectric dams.

Plus a thought that you are now introducing another fuel to your mixture but not increasing the air supply... so you will lean out.
Power isnt created, its only converted. Remember that. Splitting the oxy and hydrogen and then burning it and ending up with water again doesnt happen. From H2O to H2 and O then back to H2O... if you want any power, you have to add it somewhere or introduce another chemical.

I'll do more reading and thinking later

[Tony Z]

Conventional wisdom would say - 'If it works so well, why doesn't everyone else do it'? Well in an age where money rules the world, and the price of anything and everything depends on the price of a barrel of crude oil, perhaps we should investigate it a bit deeper.

and anyone introducing a hydrogen car will clean up the entire industry cause all the tree huggers will buy it.
Flase advertising, look at the Prius.

At the end of the day, if you want to save on fuel costs, get a diesel or a bicycle

[Pine]

I'll do more reading and thinking later

Good luck, T_Z

[4agedub]

There's some guys locally that advertise "water for fuel".

We had his personal car on the dyno (opel kadett 2lt 16v) with the hydrogen kit on. Made absolutely no difference. No hp increase and no fuel consumption differences. There's another one coming today (Toyota Camry) Maybe this one will convince me.

I personally think the guys are not producing enough hydrogen. In order to produce enough you need a huge plant and probably a second alternator. Just my 2c

[vader]

Well let us know how the dyno tune goes

[4agedub]

The client just left.
He's got a four cell hydrogen plant connected to the intake manifold.

Went up to 100km/h, switched on the dyno's load cell (then the wheel speed is locked, you can open the throttle to max and the wheel speed will stay the same). Cable tied the throttle body so it stays at precisely the same position. Waited for for the reading to stabalise, we then saw 14.5kw on the screen.

Switched on the hydrogen. The Kw reading went down to 8kw and stayed there (the hydrogen cell pulls a lot of current to the alternator works harder). Even after two minutes no change. Switched off the hydrogen cell and the power went up to 14.5kw again.

Myth busted!

We'll untill tomorrow when the client returns with another hydrogen plant to test. I did not get any pictures, he's a bit secretive about his product.

[Cyberbeast]

Well, it all makes sense. And besides, if it is such a wonderful invention, why don't we see any car manufacturers incorporate it into some of their "fuel economic" range of cars yet?
If it was really as good as the advertisements say, why isn't it as popular?

2+2 is not equaling 4 in this one...

[Matt]

there are a few guys in my area that are running these kits in there car. the 1 guy in particular,who makes these kit-he has an old golf 1(80's model)
and hes presently getting 28 k's to a litre.

ive got notes that im currently busy with, its for a "smacks booster". it has all the specs and drawings necessary to build yr own kit.
it will work, coz hydrogen boosts the fuel.....its very flamable/combustible. unlike that bullshit bio-fuel...it dcreases performance and increases
fuel consumption.

if and wen i finish...ill post what consumption specs i get

[Matt]

theres a whole formula involved....u can work out exactly how big yr plate surface must be, how many plates, how many cells-according
to supply power and all this according to your cylinder sizes. so it is pretty involved. and its easy to make mistakes.
i think the reason why car manufacturers arent putting it in their cars(one of the reasons) is space/weight. these units arent small.
and im sure its pollitical/propaganda....car manufacturers work side by side with fuel suppliers. more cars = more fuel consumption.
anything that increases yr fuels efficiency, should increase yr performance thus increasing power made out of the same amount of fuel.
surely if u can increase efficiency by 30% u should decrease consumption by 30%.
i think its worth a try...if it doesnt work....to bad

[smashcat]

theres a whole formula involved....u can work out exactly how big yr plate surface must be, how many plates, how many cells-according
to supply power and all this according to your cylinder sizes. so it is pretty involved. and its easy to make mistakes.
i think the reason why car manufacturers arent putting it in their cars(one of the reasons) is space/weight. these units arent small.
and im sure its pollitical/propaganda....car manufacturers work side by side with fuel suppliers. more cars = more fuel consumption.
anything that increases yr fuels efficiency, should increase yr performance thus increasing power made out of the same amount of fuel.
surely if u can increase efficiency by 30% u should decrease consumption by 30%.
i think its worth a try...if it doesnt work....to bad

Matt, I'm afraid you and many other people have been duped. These contraptions are just another in a long line of man's never ending search for the perpetual motion machine, or put another way, the search for "free" energy. Unfortunately, these devices all contradict the fundamental law of physics that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but only changed from one form to another. Water is made of 2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. To separate the atoms into hydrogen and oxygen gas requires energy. That energy ultimately comes from your engine via the alternator and battery. The hydrogen and oxygen are burned in the combustion process to form water again, giving out energy. But, and this is the important bit, less energy is gained from the combustion process than was used to split them in the first place in keeping with the fundamental laws of physics. At the very best, exactly the same amount of energy could be obtained, but due to losses along the way, mostly as heat, only a fraction of the energy put in to splitting the water is ever put back into the system. If the energy gained was more, it would be possible to build a closed loop system where water was first split, then re-combined, then split and so on in a never ending cycle with no loss of water and unlimited energy. In other words, a perpetual motion machine. Lovely in theory, impossible in practice.

Most of the people selling these contraptions are just plain ignorant and making money out of other peoples ignorance. Some, however, are fully aware that they are peddling snake oil. Don't be taken in.

[vader]

And we all know snake oil comes from snake nipples....

[Barry]

Unfortunately, these devices all contradict the fundamental law of physics that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but only changed from one form to another. ...... At the very best, exactly the same amount of energy could be obtained, but due to losses along the way, mostly as heat, only a fraction of the energy put in to splitting the water is ever put back into the system.

Well someone was paying attention in high school physics class......
You're right on the money there, but of course those that have laid out their's are going to defend the idea to the hilt.
And until we embrace renewable electricity generation more, hydrogen fuel (in any form) is ultimately more damaging to the environment because so much more energy is required to produce it, than what is yielded. Sorry BMW.....

Now if we can take the discussion of snake nipples further please

Barry